S3E08: Ruth 1:15-18

Ellie Brigida: Welcome to Sweetbitter, where we explore the queer history of the Bible and Christianity. We're your hosts, Ellie Brigida...

Leesa Charlotte: ...and Leesa Charlotte.

EB: This episode, we're discussing queer-identified Catholic religious sisters.

LC: But before we get into that, let's bring in our resident Christian, Alyse Knorr. Welcome, Alyse.

Alyse Knorr: Hey friends.

EB: Hi, Alyse. How are you doing today?

AK: Good. How are y'all?

EB: Good. Looking forward to talking about sisters and nuns and all of the above.

AK: Yes.

EB: I have a lot of experience with the Catholic religious sisters. Let's be real, Catholic elementary school, baby.

LC: Every time I think about sisters, I just think about that song from White Christmas.

EB: Oh, I thought you were gonna say something about Sister Act.

LC: Oh my god, there's so many songs about sisters.

EB: Or Sound of Music.

AK: Sound of Music!

EB: Like there are a lot of Catholic religious sisters in our culture, like in film.

AK: Can I tell you guys something real quick about The Sound of Music that's completely unrelated?

EB: Yes, please.

LC: Tell us.

AK: I love The Sound of Music. It's my favorite movie of all time. I think it like sums up my personality 100%, and –

EB: Wait, which – who are you? What do you mean, "sums up your personality"? Like, who in The Sound of Music are you?

AK: I'm not any one of the characters.

EB: Oh, you just mean, loving The Sound of Music, just as your personality.

AK: Yes, because it's very like sincere and earnest and, you know, like, I don't know.

EB: Okay, yes.

AK: Over the top. So I'm gonna do that horrible thing where I describe a TikTok, but it's just great. So it's a person holding a cup of coffee with the lid on it that says, "Caution, contents may be hot." And he's going, "Caution, contents may be hot. It can't be that hot." And then he opens the lid, and inside the coffee is Captain von Trapp ripping the Nazi flag in half with his bare hands. And he goes, "Oh, fuck!" And like, acts like the coffee's really hot.

EB: That is amazing.

AK: Best TikTok I've ever seen in my life.

EB: That's really hot, that's really hot.

LC: Alyse. You are honestly a worry. I love it. Amazing.

AK: Continue. Continue with our actual podcast.

LC: I can't believe that never came up on my algorithm. I feel like I've done something wrong with my life if that hasn't, you know, shown up for me.

AK: I need to send it to you. I'll send it to you. I'll send it to you.

LC: Send it to everyone. We'll post it on our socials.

EB: It's the perfect – really on brand. So today we're talking about Catholic religious sisters. What's our passage for today?

AK: It's one of my favorites of all time. It's Ruth 1:15-18. And so here's the backstory. There's this dude, and he's married to Naomi, and there's a famine. So they pack up and they move to another country, right, with their two sons. The sons grow up in this other country, and they marry women from that other country, right? Bad news: Naomi's husband dies, and then the sons die. So all that are left are all these wives – Naomi and her two daughters-in-law, Ruth and Orpah. And so times are tough, right? Like there's shit going down, there's famine, and like, to be a widow in this time is really, really, really tough, because your husband is supposed to be your protector and all that good stuff, like you need a man basically to take care of you, just because of the patriarchal system that they're in, right? So Naomi is like, "I gotta go back home to my country where I have, like, some relatives and some distant relatives that can take care of me," right? But what makes the most sense for these two daughters-in-law is to go back to their families in the country they're already living in. Because remember, these daughters are from this country where they're in now. So Naomi's basically telling them – picture the scene, like Naomi's about to leave to go back to her country. They're all crying because they're really, really close. They're all weeping. And Naomi keeps telling these women, "Go back to your father's house and he'll take care of you. Like, go back to your father, your family, your gods. I'm gonna go back to mine. I have nothing to give you. I have no husbands." She literally says, like, "My womb is used up. I can't give you new husbands. I wish I could, but there's nothing I can do for you. Don't come with me. It's not a good idea." And the women are like, "No, no, we really want to come with you." And she's like, "No, please don't come with me. It's not good for you," right? And so then this is what Naomi – sorry, this is what Ruth says to her. Ruth is one of the daughters-in-law. So Naomi says, "Look, your sister-in-law, Orpah, has gone back to her family and to her gods. Return after your sister-in-law. But Ruth says, 'Do not press me to leave you, to turn back from following you. Where you go, I will go; where you lodge, I will lodge. Your people shall be my people, and your God my God. Where you die, I will die, and there I will be buried. May the Lord do thus to me, and more as well, if even death parts me from you.' And when Naomi saw that she was determined to go with her, she said no more to her." And they go on this girl's road trip. And the whole rest of the Book of Ruth is awesome, because it's basically about like what they do to survive together. It's amazing. It involves, like, grabbing someone's dick in the middle of the night. You should definitely read it, but, yeah.

LC: What!

EB: Wait, what do you mean by that, in a violent way?

AK: No, like in a sexy way. So what they end up doing is –

LC: In a sexy way!

AK: What they end up doing is they go back to Naomi's homeland, and Naomi's got this distant cousin, Boaz. And Boaz is like, "Yeah, you can come work in my fields." So Ruth goes and works in his field. And she's basically, like, picking up the shaft and like selling it. So like, she's doing, like, the absolute poorest work you can do, and getting very little money for it. Then she goes into the threshing room, where they're all sleeping after the harvest or whatever, and it says she laid at Boaz's feet, and that he was like, "Whoa, I'm gonna marry you," right? And that's kind of weird. Why would you marry someone just because they lay at your feet? And she basically begged him, like, you know, please take care of me and my mother-in-law of my dead husband. So the reality is that the word "feet" is a mistranslation or euphemism for genitals. So she lay at his genitals and was feeling him up on the threshing room floor. And that's, you know, kind of what kicked off their relationship and all this other drama happens. It's a great read, and it's a very short book of the Bible, but, yeah, Book of Ruth.

LC: Where is the television series, movie, anything? How do I not know about Ruth and Naomi?

AK: Because it stars two women.

LC: Oh my god.

EB: Sounds about right.

AK: Classic.

EB: Yes. I mean, I was saying earlier, before we started recording, that I mostly know about Ruth and Naomi because of teenage bounty hunters, because it was like, two young queer Christian girls who were, like – one of them is trying to feel the other one out of like, "Are you cool with gay people? Like, are you good with Ruth and Naomi?" So, like, it definitely has been used as, I think, like, a euphemism for, like, "Ruth and Naomi," like "friends of Dorothy" kind of vibes.

AK: For sure. I mean the passage I just read you is basically like Ruth's vows to Naomi to never leave her side. It sounds like wedding vows, right? Like the parallels.

LC: It honestly sounds like Letty and Dom in Fast and Furious. They have this whole thing. And it's like, "You go, I go. You die, I die."

Letty: You will never be alone again. I vow, wherever you go, I go. You ride, I ride. You fight, I fight. And if you ever die on me, Dominic Toretto, I'm gonna die with you.

LC: And it's like a really big, dramatic part of the thing. And when you were reading, I'm like, oh my god, they stole this from the Bible.

EB: That is Ruth and Naomi.

AK: Yeah. I mean, it's great. So it's been used in actual lesbian wedding vows and lesbian weddings for, you know, a long time. The question of whether they were actually, you know, lovers is less interesting to me, right? Maybe they were, maybe they were actual lovers. But if this is a vow between a mother and a daughter, if this is a vow between two best friends, if this is a vow between two women companions, who in a time of crisis and uncertainty vow to stick together – however their relationship actually was, it's beautiful to me. And that's what the subject of today's episode is, because the women religious we're going to hear from – who are just a delight, I loved talking to these women, they are so funny and so smart and generous – but yeah, like the types of relationships that women religious have, when they live together or not, sometimes are sexual or romantic or intimate, and sometimes are deep romantic friendships, and sometimes are deep platonic friendships, or feel like sisterhood. I mean, that's why they're called "Sisters." So today's episode isn't so much about like, oh, "Are the sisters, you know, having sex?" It's more about like that form of women-to-women commitment, and all of the ways that that looks.

EB: I love that. I can't wait to hear about it.

AK: Before we dive into what the women religious have to say on this episode, I want to share a little bit from the Reverend Jakob Hero-Shaw, who is the senior pastor at the Metropolitan Community Church of Tampa, and he has some great thoughts on Ruth and Naomi.

Reverend Jakob Hero-Shaw: Ruth and Naomi is a great example. Whether they were lovers or not is debated, but whether or not they were is actually irrelevant to their queerness, because what's queer about them is that they loved in a way that was valid for them and misunderstood outside of them. So it's not about whether or not they were sexual, if that was the type of love they shared. What they did was they created family out of love. And that's, you know, that's what queer community does. I have so many people who are my family because we're in queer family, we're in chosen family, and they're not all queer people. But it's still part of like, that queer idea of family, and I see that with them. And I know some people say, "Oh, no, there's no way that they were lovers." And some people who really hold on to the idea that they were, because that's a validation that's needed. And it could be or it couldn't be. You know, David and Jonathan is another example where it doesn't really matter, in my view, whether or not they were sexual. They had an affinity for each other that transcended other things in a way that wasn't understood or accepted by society, and I think that ends up being kind of more what queerness is. And then the early church as well, right? It was like, let's create a family in a new way, and these new bonds where – okay, well, here's the message that starts in the Bible and then spills into the early church, beyond the text and church history, is this message again and again of, the people you came from may or may not understand you, but the people who you choose as your family, that's your real family. And then, you know, we go to MCC churches, and I see – no matter what MCC church I go to, I see the same thing again and again: these families. And it's not just MCC, I think lots of churches are like, this is my church family. And they don't just say it, because that's like a phrase that gets used in church, but more like, you know, the kind of matriarch of our church was a drag queen named Tiffani Middlesexx, and she died last year, and the entire community – like, I don't mean the church community, I mean the, like, entire LGBTQ community in the Tampa Bay area grieved powerfully when she died, and she was so vocal about loving our church, that it was like, you know, people just knew that this was her home. And her biological family, her sister came to town and had been to our church many, many times, and came to be in community with us and grieve with us. And, you know, this is the queer family. And it wasn't so much just that Tiffani was a drag queen, but like her love of our community – and she was in her seventies and was no longer performing, and did not dress as a woman hardly ever. But what still was always Tiffani, and people used every kind of pronoun you could. Out of habit, I always just say "she," but Tiffani didn't care. And you know, she was in and out of the hospital a lot, and she's this, you know, if you didn't know her, you'd see just like an elderly black man in the hospital room, and then I would show up and sometimes she'd say, "This is my pastor," but most of the time she'd say, "This is my brother." With a 30-year age difference and ethnicity difference and everything else, but, you know, she said it sometimes just to get a rise out of people, or she would say, like, "I'm his sister," which would even confuse people more. Why is this man saying that, you know. But she also meant it like, we are family. And there wasn't a word, really. So she chose sibling. She chose brother. But, like, you know, that's what I love about church community done well, and it's not perfect. Like, I'm not saying, like, "Oh, I pastor this church and I'm the most perfect thing," like – but I do think that with everything that goes into church, like, what I think I'm known for is, like, really loving the people who come to church, whether they're members or they just show up or whatever. And that's what I want to model for people like, okay, we're not always gonna get along, but like, let's just love each other. Because that's really what I believe church needs to be about, because community is hard and family is hard, and a community that operates like family brings in all of those family systems that people came from. So like, let's have love as the bottom line here, and build the community from there.

EB: Leesa, I don't know if you know this about me, but I am a sucker for chosen family.

LC: Oh my god, why do you think I love the Fast and Furious movies? It's all about chosen family.

EB: I knew once I said chosen family, you were gonna say Fast and Furious.

LC: I know. I'm glad my brand is strong. We thought we were going to be talking about The Sound of Music, but we are already talking about the Fast and Furious more than The Sound of Music.

EB: Historically known for Catholic religious sisters.

LC: I mean, all I'm thinking about with Catholic religious sisters, and I know they're not sisters, but like, I just keep thinking about the nun in Our Flag Means Death.

EB: Yeah, but we're not here to talk about that today.

LC: We're not here to talk about any of those things. We're here to be on topic and talk about Ruth and Naomi, and there is plenty to talk about, so –

EB: So next we're gonna hear from Reverend Altagracia Perez-Bullard, who's the Director of Contextual Ministry and Assistant Professor of Practical Theology at Virginia Theological Seminary, who had more to say about Ruth and Naomi.

Reverend Altagracia Perez-Bullard: I guess if we don't – especially if we don't read into Scripture the way that we think of relationships and marriages nowadays, then you start seeing all these relationships between people, right, between David and Solomon, between Ruth and Naomi, between where people of the same gender cared and loved one another, made commitments to each other, became family with each other, and whether or not those were sexual or not. I mean, I think there are reasons those who queer the Bible – which that's not my area of expertise – but there are those who read, who queer Christ and queer the Bible and see, you know, like these words that have been translated this way could be translated this way, and it gives a very different message. But even as somebody that doesn't do that myself, I see where people of the same genders or people that were marginalized but served a particular role, like eunuchs, right? So eunuchs who are in Scripture treated as gender neutral people because they've given up their gender as expressed in their genitalia, they all find a place like, I'm not seeing Jesus. I'm not seeing – like I see these stories, and I see stories of people who followed God faithfully, who were called to be servants, who received the good news and shared the good news as disciples of Christ in the New Testament, and then in the Hebrew Scriptures, all these relationships, that it wasn't just about husbands and wives. And especially when it's always wives, like, it's not even about – like, all this argument about one man and one woman. I'm like, I don't know. I guess that that's a New Testament value, but I'm looking at the Hebrew Scriptures, and there were lots of wives, there were so many wives and concubines and these people were considered faithful followers of God, and they had multiple wives and multiple concubines. And yeah, especially like the David and Jonathan story, where they loved one another fiercely and made vows with one another about protecting and loving and caring for each other and, you know, were straight up, right? It's like greater than the love of many women was the love between them. And so obviously, there are these stories in Scripture. In the 80s, it was very common for the Ruth and Naomi passage to be used in same-sex blessings, in relationships between women. So when lesbians got married – clearly not legally at the time – but when they got married before a minister, they would use that passage, because here were these two women that were not connected to men, that chose to bond and to make vows of love and commitment and family. You know, in a way, when you hear the words that, you know, "Your God will be my God. Your people will be my people, don't make me leave you. I can't leave you or forsake you," right? They're the words of the kind of love that queer people have together with one another that leads them to making families and creating, exchanging vows and, you know, creating homes, and they look like everything. But that's okay. Apparently, families have always looked like everything. My family is a blended family. So Cynthia, my wife, and I, between the two of us, we have four children. So there's two that she gave birth to in a previous marriage and two that I gave birth to in a previous marriage, and in my case, on my side, in my previous marriage, the man I was married to also identified as queer. He was my best friend. We got married for the longest time, we would confuse people, because I would still talk of myself as a lesbian. He was still talking of himself as a gay man, and that was just very confusing to people. Like, but you're married to each other, and we're like, yes, but this is our identity. And like, now that sounds like benign, right, but in the early 90s, that was very confusing to people. And so my children, my two daughters, my two children, grew up in a queer household, and they, you know, they knew about our lives and our loves and were surrounded by many same-sex couples and folks that were identified as queer and trans and you know, so that was like – they didn't know that that was not like – of course then they went to Catholic school, started learning some things that seemed to confuse them. They came home like, "So my teacher says that children that grow up in families with two men or two women are running around very confused." And I said, you know, I just named off all the kids they knew. And do they seem confused to you? They're like, "Oh, no, they don't seem confused," right. These are people that don't know us and we know better. So yeah, so our kids are all grown now, for a little while right now, during COVID, they've kind of taken turns living with us as they've been transitioning from one place to another. But two of them identify as straight. Two of them identify as queer. My two stepchildren from my ex-husband's previous marriage identify as straight, and they've also known me most of their lives, because he and I were friends for a very long time before we got together. So yeah, but the family knows, I have this collection. I call all six of them of mine, and I claim all six of them. I get that they all have multiple parents, but I claim all six, and yeah, and Cynthia and I live and work here at Virginia Theological Seminary. And my wife, as I like to say, my wife collects strays, so she proceeds to adopt many people, and many people come to our house and stay in our house and visit our house. And we both have a practice of, you know, welcoming people into our home. But I think with the students especially, as queer women of color, there are folks that, you know, especially our seminary is pretty white, and so there's lots of people preparing for ministry that are happy to count us amongst their friends on this journey. And so she just keeps calling them her kids. I keep going, "These are grown adults. You can't just keep adopting grown adults."

EB: I love everything that the Reverend Altagracia had to say about chosen family and blended families. It's gonna be a great episode. Thank you, Alyse, so much, for talking with us at the top of this episode.

AK: Of course.

EB: This is gonna be a banger.

LC: And sharing your love of Sound of Music with us. Always, always.

AK: My pleasure.

LC: Let's see how much we can sing in this episode.

EB: And for all of you listening, we will be back after a quick break.

LC: And we're back. As we said at the top of the episode, we will be discussing queer-identified Catholic religious sisters this episode. So Ellie, what is the difference between a nun and a sister?

EB: Yes, so most people use these terms interchangeably in common practice. However, nuns and sisters are different. So nuns – they both take vows. So nuns and sisters both take the same vows to pledge themselves to God, to religion. Nuns, more often, are found in convents, in prayer. And sisters tend to be more out in the world, so even some of the sisters – but you know –

LC: Nuns gone wild?

EB: Yes, no, they're spreading the word in different scenarios, like in schools, in colleges, but the nuns are more what you would expect. Sound of Music is like nuns, convent, right.

LC: Okay, Sound of Music, great. Okay, I know what you mean.

EB: Yeah, sisters are like – I had a softball coach who was a sister, alright.

LC: Did you really?

EB: I did, Sister Pat, and she was my softball coach, and she was great.

LC: That's amazing.

EB: Yes, amazing.

LC: Did you pray before you played?

EB: I don't remember. I bet you that we did.

LC: I bet you she did.

EB: Yeah, but either way, she was awesome. She still is awesome. But yes, lots of sisters in my life. Today, we'll be talking about a great book, Love Tenderly: Sacred Stories of Lesbian and Queer Religious, published in 2020 by New Ways Ministry. I'll read you all the Amazon description: "It is a collection of personal stories shared by women religious who identify as lesbian or queer, and who have come to embrace their sexual orientation as an integral part of their identity and vocation to religious life. Each story is a journey of love and an embrace of truth and wholeness. These stories are some of the voices of women religious who are lesbian or queer." Today's guests are Sister Surdovel and Sister Fasolka. Sister Surdovel edited the collection, and Sister Fasolka has an essay in it. We'll let them introduce themselves.

Fran Fasolka: My name is Sister Fran Fasolka, and I'm an author of one of the stories in Love Tenderly, the anthology of stories of sisters who identify as lesbian and queer, and my story is under the name "Francesca."

Grace Surdovel: I'm Sister Grace Surdovel. And I also am a woman religious. I'm actually the editor of Love Tenderly. And I'm also an author of one of the stories, which is entitled "Authenticity."

FF: For probably more than 30 years, women religious who were looking at issues of sexuality and sexual orientation had gathered for a retreat, a yearly retreat, and that retreat allowed all of us to talk about, you know, our life, our stories, our experiences as religious, and identification as lesbian and queer. And from those stories being told at the retreats, we thought it would be awesome if we could capture them in an anthology, in a book, and share it. And really the intention was to share it with other women religious, because women religious don't very frequently talk about sexuality – their own, or anyone else's. So we wanted to put some of our stories down in writing. And the idea started a very long time ago, and finally came to fruition because Grace had a wonderful approach.

GS: I mean, just in my own life, I've seen the conversation break open and the willingness to accept, you know, themselves and others progress, but it's part of the human existence. Does it mean that they were able to embrace it? Maybe, maybe not, you know, I don't know, but the knowing of the existence of folks who identify in the LGBTQIA spectrum, the acceptance, I mean, that was really one of the major motivators of the anthology, was to help break open the conversation, so that more people could feel safe to be themselves. It's in Scripture. Actually, it's from Micah. Micah 6:8.

FF: What does God ask of you?

GS: What does God ask of you? To act justly, to love tenderly, and to walk humbly.

LC: The whole book is amazing, but the dedication is especially powerful. We asked Grace to read it for us.

GS: To all the lesbian and queer women religious over the centuries who lived in silence and fear about their sexuality, and to all those who now courageously claim their sexual identity, in deep gratitude for the lives of all these women who have loved tenderly and ministered selflessly in the service of God's people.

EB: The anthology is a really important space to capture the incredible diversity in the experiences of queer women religious, which Grace talked about.

GS: You'll have different perceptions. You'll have the folks who don't see any kind of sexual identity, gender identity, sexuality at all attached to religious folks, or the polar opposite is everybody's sleeping with everybody else, you know. So the reality lives in the middle, you know. And then you have the two perceptions. I mean I know, growing up, I would never have thought to ask a sister about sexuality. You just didn't do it. I think that that is potentially why some of the authors chose to write under an alias. Because they were, you know, afraid of the reaction of their congregation, of their congregational leadership, and they knew that, you know – like I can think of one off the top of my head, who definitely would have been at risk of expulsion from her congregation. And I know there are others. So, you know, I mean, that was something when we decided to do this, we engaged in conversation with our leadership, you know, and said, "We're going to do this." And I said to the congregation President, "My name is going to be on it, like it's going to be right on the cover, and I'm going to sign my story. So are you okay with that?" Because – not that I was asking permission, because I was going to do it anyway, but just like a heads up and, you know, she could not have been more supportive.

EB: So Leesa, what are some of the things the essays in this book talk about?

LC: Sister Fasolka shared about her essay, which is one of our favorites. So I'll let her tell you more about that.

FF: I know my story, but I had never written my story. And one thing that I think makes our anthology a little different is that in the beginning of the book, you will find nine questions that were offered to the writers as jumping-off points for writing their story. And Grace and I worked really hard at developing those questions, because we really felt that if these were the right questions, every single sister, every single human being, could really write something and answer to these questions. I did what every writer did. I worked with those questions, and I struggled to work with those questions, and I wrote and I rewrote and I rewrote and I rewrote. It literally took me months to write my story, the one that was published. So it was a real, honestly, therapy for me to write my story. It was a spiritual experience. It was a sacred experience, and it was a really healthy emotional experience to write my story. One of the questions, interestingly, says, "When did you know? When did you realize you were gay or lesbian?" And man, isn't that a question for everyone? When what happened? What happened? When did you know? And so, you know, I started there, and then I talked really a lot about what it was like to fall in love. And I fell in love when I was in the convent. It was a life-changing experience, and also a very traumatic experience, because you put this in the context of a religious life commitment, and all of a sudden, everything is in question. So you know, that falling in love was a defining moment, that's why I chose that title. It was a defining moment for the entire rest of my life.

EB: So we asked Sister Fasolka what it was like falling in love, and she gave the best answer. We love love!

FF: That's a loaded question. You know, probably for the first time in my life, I was with all of these young women who were so passionate about life, excited about religious life, wanted to be great nuns, wanted to do everything right, wanted to be closer to God. And you know, when you're with people who carry the same desires, those attractions, there's just like sparks flying. And you know, I was young, she was young, you know, we had a lot in common, and the sparks were flying. You can't help it, sometimes. Tremendous amount of guilt and anxiety, really questioned my calling to religious life, because I was so conflicted. I really wanted to know what this love was about. I wanted to know what this – I had never felt that way before. So I was very curious, and I wanted to know what it was about. And before me was a decision, you know, do I stay in the conflict, in religious life, and try to figure this out in this life? Or do I say, you know what, I need to separate, I need to experience this? And that's what I chose. I chose to separate and experience what this was about, this new relationship. And I think it was the right choice. I think I had to know. We stayed together for a couple of years. It was very nice, particularly, it was very nice for me. And the reason I say that is because the love of my life really thought she was not gay, she was not lesbian, and she wanted to pursue relationships with men. So here's the second crisis of questioning who I am, what I want, and I went into therapy, and I really asked a lot of hard questions, and I realized that my desire was still for religious life, you know. That was my first call. I had this side track of, you know, this relationship that I wanted to explore, but my calling was to religious life. So I came back to religious life. I was so excited, because I felt like I had a better grip on what I wanted, who I am, and my desire, really, was to be with these other women who wanted to serve, and I wanted to serve more than anything else in my life. So I was very excited to come back, and I was a little bit, I hope, more mature and self-aware when I returned. For me, you know, I was so tuned in to what the church taught that my coming out process was cloaked in shame and guilt, and then put the layer of religious life experience on top of that, and I was really conflicted about church. I was conflicted about how any love between two human beings could be wrong, could be seen as disordered or immoral, and I had a really hard time. This is where spiritual direction came in and really saved me, because I was finally talking about all of my guilt and anxiety and fear with people who were really grounded in their relationship with God. And so it helped, it helped me to deepen my own relationship with God, and to be able to say, "What the Church teaches and what I know of God are not the same thing regarding sexuality. What the Church teaches is not what I believe about my god in regard to my sexual being."

LC: So this is like if Maria had left and then come back and then actually stayed. Maybe, you know –

EB: So she sings – then Mother Superior sings, "Climb every mountain." And she's like, "Actually, I think I'm good with this mountain."

LC: I'm good with this mountain. This is a great mountain.

EB: I mean, I also just love this as well, just in terms of, like, how she has no regrets, right? Like, each choice that she made, she's like, that's how my life was meant to go.

LC: But I think that that's always a good thing. And, like, I have this conversation a lot with people in Australia. Well, I don't think it's just in Australia, but you get these people, and they're just like, "Oh my god, I so wish that, you know, I could move to another country or live in New York or whatever." And I'm just like, "Yeah, I would just rather have the regret of trying it."

EB: Yeah. Overall, I agree with you, and I think Sister Fasolka clearly, like, did what she wanted in life, and her spirituality helped her through that. She'll talk about that later. She couldn't be happier with her relationship, with her sexuality and her religion now.

LC: Amazing.

EB: Sister Surdovel also talked about her story, which is included in the anthology, which we'll hear about next.

GS: My story is my story, basically, you know, I mean, when you read the story, it's my experiences of coming to know myself and coming to be my authentic self. For me, I always knew I was different. You know, as a kid, all of my crushes were same-gender crushes, you know, which, you know, when you're a kid, you're like, you don't – as a young child, you just think, you know, I really like that person, you know, like, in the story, I talk about my coach. I really liked my coach, you know, and then I got to, you know, middle school, high school, then they're actually crushes, and again, same gender. Well, as Fran was talking about, you know, there's a lot of shame, because you're experiencing these feelings and these attractions. Well, somebody's standing at a pulpit telling you that that's sinful and disordered and, you know, so you've got this conflicting, you know, situation. I was a public school kid. I was not a Catholic school kid, but, you know, on Sunday, you heard the fire and brimstone, and everybody that does this is going to hell and all that kind of stuff. So you struggle, and you deal with it. I developed shame, and then you internalize it, and then you struggle with it again. I think I really – it probably came to a head when I was in college, because I was in college trying to make sense of all that, trying to figure it all out, and at the same time looking at the congregation. I'm at the college that's sponsored by the congregation, of which I am now a leader. Irony does not get lost here. But so I'm walking along this discernment journey with these sisters. At the same time, I'm trying to figure out where that piece of me is going to fit in that, and in my brain, I'm saying it doesn't, you know. So I'm starting to experience the shame and, you know, the depression at different points, you know, saying, "Oh, this doesn't fit, and I'm not going to be able to go there, because they're not going to accept me," and all that kind of stuff. So thank God. I mean, I was really blessed, because when I was a student at the college, I had this sister who was the – she's like this Associate Director of Student Affairs, I think was her role, and she was my mentor as I was looking at the congregation. So I finally, you know, she's also a clinician, so she saw something was going on. So, you know, I went and did a little bit of counseling with the person who helped me kind of identify what was going on. But then it was like, "Oh no, everything's fine. We're good," you know, then I entered the community. Well, of course, it wasn't good, but ironically, that same sister is now my novice director. She was my spiritual director and mentor, my associate director. Now my novice director. And so she was making sure I got through the process, because she went right along with me, which is, you know, thank God, because she's amazing. But again, novitiate, as Fran was sharing, you know, it's this pretty similar story, you know. I'm in the novitiate, you've got all these young people, young women, you know, a lot of similar passions and all that kind of stuff. So then the question rises again, you know, and especially when you're heading towards vows, you know, "Can I, as this lesbian woman, live this vowed life of celibacy?" You know poverty, no problem. You know obedience, eh. But you know, the question was chastity, really, if I'm going to live in a community of women, you know, you are a lesbian woman, a young lesbian woman, who is a very sexual being, professing to live in this community with these other women, who are also young. So that was again a struggle. So again, I went back to do some counseling, and really was able to come to a place of peace. And then I was able to do my first profession. Went out to mission, and ironically, a woman by the name of Fran Fasolka showed up at the convent where I was, because she was looking at coming into the congregation. So our paths kind of connected at that point, which was awesome. But, again, you know, I worked at a school in New Jersey, and it popped up again. Because, you know, you think you clean it up, you know. Oh, it's fine. I'm fine, you know. But, life happens. So really, I think it wasn't until I worked with a lesbian counselor that she really, you know – a gestalt lesbian counselor is like, "You are going to deal with this, and you are going to deal with it now." And she went, she did not – so it was about five years, she was phenomenal. She was absolutely phenomenal. She's like, "Nope, you think it's all done and all pretty, and you can put a bow in it. Wrong." Like, she just was really right direct, you know. And that was the point where I could really, you know, come to fully accepting who I was. And then, you know, in the story, you know, I just talk about some of the different experiences of that journey, but it was really, as Fran was saying, you know, it really was coming to fully accept and to simply – and it's a decision every day, for me, to say, "No, I'm not going to accept the shame." You know, that shame is coming from you. I don't want it. It doesn't fit me, and I'm not going to accept it, you know. You can dump all the shame on me you want, you know. And as Fran was saying, you know, I, too, know that these teachings of the Church are antiquated and wrong, you know. And they need to catch up to human sexuality, human psychology. And I will tell folks that when I have the opportunity.

EB: One of the things I'm just loving about this episode is that both of these sisters seem really just, like, confident in themselves. The fact that Sister Surdovel said she won't accept shame from others anymore –

LC: Nor should you.

EB: Thank you for that. I'm so happy about that. We also talked to the sisters about what they might say to people who might interpret the Scripture homophobically.

LC: Gasp.

EB: And here's what they had to say.

GS: Well, I wouldn't consider myself a scripture scholar. I mean, for me, I think it has a lot to do with – and we're very blessed, when we join religious communities, that you get to study scripture, and you get to study how scripture was written and why scripture was written, and the time at which the scripture was written, and what society was at the time the scripture was written, you know, and that whole context piece. And we, you know, we're very blessed to get that education, but the general public doesn't have it, so they're doing literal – you know, they're like, "Well, this said this, therefore it must be this." And it's like, okay, it said this, but when was it written? By whom was it written? What did that church look like? Who was in charge? You know, which is what I mean when I say, you know, the teaching needs to catch up with society, with psychology, with human sexuality, because some of it is based on outdated teachings.

FF: I have pretty much avoided ever trying to debate things from scripture. I'm not a scripture scholar, and I don't – like, I will never be one. The message I live by is the message of Jesus, and it is also a message of our patron saint, Saint Alphonsus Liguori. And Saint Alphonsus Liguori taught that no one can love you more than your God, and so my message is: God's love is unconditional, and that's exactly the way I want to love. It has nothing to do with sexuality or homosexuality. It has all to do with love. So I won't debate scripture, I'm not going to go there. I'm a believer in the love of God, and I want to love in the same unconditional way. If we believe that the Gospels are the stories and parables of Jesus and his life, he never makes mention of homosexuality once, ever. So why should I? Why should I stick that in there? I'm not going to. I just try to keep it simple. My understanding of God is really simple, you know, I look around and I say, "These people are of God, this nature, this incredible nature, this earth is of God." All I can do is love it back.

GS: You know, I teach high school theology, and I used to say this to my students: "Who does Jesus spend most of his time with? Is it the Pharisees? No. Is it the Sadducees? No. Is it the sinner? Yes. Is it the common people? Is it the poor people? Is it the, you know, who does he choose to spend his time with, and how does he spend his time with them?" He spends his time with them in love, in loving embrace and hugging and forgiveness, and, you know. So, I mean, I think that fits right into our title, you know? I mean this judging stuff is, you know, that was not how he chose to spend the 30 years or so of his life on earth. He really was there to bring the human form of God to the people, and bring the love of God to the people. And I'm right there with Fran. That's where I'm going, you know, I'm not a scripture scholar. I'm not going to sit there and debate with scripture scholars, you know, but just read the scriptures, you know, read the gospels. Who's he hanging out with? And look at the crew he picked. I mean, the twelve people he picked, they weren't Pharisees, they weren't the big shots in the church. They were fishermen, you know, they were women. That's always one of my favorite parts. He liked to hang out with some of the women, you know. So I'm more of that gospel. You know, love really is where we want to go with this. And you know, we just need to stop dumping shame and laying guilt and, you know, judging each other and just love.

LC: We also asked the sisters their favorite part of being a woman religious. And again, Sister Fasolka had the best answer.

FF: I love women. And guess what? I live with all women! So really, honestly, religious life, it's a great life. You know, if you're called to it, and I'm called to it. I believe others are called to it. They might not know it yet, but it's a beautiful life. And because women are the source of my energy and the recipients of my energy, I think it's a perfect place for me. It's a perfect place for me to grow and to give my gifts and talents in service of my sisters and the people of God.

GS: There's a very different energy when you work with women. We're very nurturing, we're very creative. We're always looking at ways to swell our group and welcome the outcast and you know, say, "Hey, you know, I can relate where you're coming from. Come join us." You know, we're always looking to join. We're always networking. We're always looking for ways to connect with other women religious and other women of other faiths and other cultures and other languages, that I think that's more challenging for men, because it's not really the model that many of them follow, especially like a hierarchical church. It's very hierarchical. You know, they tend to kind of be – the image I would have would be a ladder, where women, my experience with women religious, was really as a circle. But it's not a sealed circle, it's an open circle, so there's always room for another one and another one. And the circle just grows and grows and grows. I mean, and like Fran said, you know, you draw energy off of each other, you know, and you get creative energy. And I mean, we're very blessed. We have sisters in our congregation from Asia. We have sisters from Latin America, and the beauty and the dance and the language and the music and the food and the, you know – I mean, it's just great to have that experience and then to join with other groups who have, you know, other populations. And we're very blessed. We have sisters who share communities with us and are here, in this building and in other buildings, who are from Africa, and so they bring their African traditions and their music and their song and, you know, so it just really – you know, to constantly be welcoming. Welcome the stranger. Welcome who might be labeled the outcast. For me, that's where I get a lot of energy.

LC: I have to say, living with all women is great. Every time a man stays with us, even a gay man, like just for a visit, I love them, but like it shifts the whole house. I love having all women here.

EB: I agree. Did you know that for three summers in a row, I lived with nine other women in a house on Cape Cod?

LC: Oh my god, the dream.

EB: That's just basically – well, it wasn't quite like a convent, but it was a lot of women in one space. So I get that.

LC: I lived with a man before I moved here, and he was absolutely just one of my favorite people. But no, living with women, like every time a woman comes stays with us, it's like, it's even easier somehow to have like another person in the house.

EB: I love, too, like, I think there's a thread through this where we sort of touched at the top, just about like relationships between women, of course, like some platonic, some intimate, but like, there is a deep bond that women form with other women, in like every single way. And I think women religious, it's like a completely different – because, like, Sister Fasolka said, like, everyone sort of has the same, like, passion, and it's like this connecting force.

LC: I think that's also like something that does connect people. And I think it's why people find it so hard to make adult friendships. I think when you've got something that you're, you know, you're kind of coalescing around, like, it's why it's easy to make friends at school or university or, like, around a job or whatnot, like, I think that that's always, you know, that common thread that brings people together of different backgrounds and is so powerful.

EB: One of the major themes of this anthology is also around how intimacy is cultivated between women living under vows of celibacy. So both Sister Surdovel and Sister Fasolka had super interesting things to say about that.

GS: I think, in my experience, it is really, you develop profound friendships. You really do, you really go deep with one another. And, you know, you kind of risk sharing a little bit and a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more, and you just, you draw energy from that level of, you know, spiritual and emotional intimacy. And I see that in our congregation, you know, as I said, I was just elected to our leadership team, and the blessing of blessings with that is being able to now interact with more sisters and really go deep with them, you know, especially some of our older sisters. And that's that intimacy, that's where you draw the energy. And it really helps make the choice of celibacy a little bit easier, because everyone has a need for intimacy and to be known on that deeper, intimate level. And being able to do that with folks, you know – I mean, you're not going to do with everyone. You're going to have a few folks with whom you can share and can be genuine and authentic with. But that's so important if you're going to live a celibate life, because otherwise, you're going to be a very lonely person in a crowd of women. And if you're a person who's attracted to women, that could be even more challenging.

FF: Intimacy is developmental. When I was 16, falling in love, intimacy, whatever I thought it was, I don't know, is way different than when I was 26 and 36 and 46 and 56, you know. It's the same with celibacy. Celibacy is one thing when you enter, it's something different in midlife, and in our older years, it's yet something different. It's developmental. So, you know, that's part of the storytelling that we did with the anthology. You could see sisters' development in their understanding of sexuality, intimacy, and celibacy. You know, you don't choose your sexuality. You discover it, really, and it changes. It doesn't have to be static. It can change. It's also developmental. Intimacy is something you choose to enter into. Celibacy is something you choose. Those choices are never made once and for all. They change. You recommit, you recommit. You know, every day you recommit. Are you perfectly, perfectly faithful? Maybe, maybe not. Everyone has a story.

GS: For me, what celibacy does is it allows me to be free, you know, to take that deep, profound love that I have within me and share it with more people than one other significant other, you know. So it's like I have a pie, and I could be in a relationship and give the whole pie to one person. Or you could have the pie and break it up into slices and share slices with others. And just for me, it's very freeing. As you saw in my story, I did have some relationships prior to entering, and one was pretty serious, and I could have gone down that path, but like Fran, I felt that deep call to religious life, so I have to, daily, as Fran said, choose to take that emotional energy, that sexual energy, you know, and give it to others, you know, in love, and have the connection with the other, you know, where I would have had with, you know, a significant other in a relationship.

LC: Amazing. 100% agree. As I said, I live with – well, I live with a woman, and it's not a sexual relationship. It's just like, a sister relationship. And like everything that these two sisters are saying is like, so real, although I'm not celibate. But the intimacy of like living with a woman and like having that stability in partnership is like, for me specifically, and I think it probably has to do with, like, my upbringing as well, and just like my neurodivergency issues. But like, I find a lot more stability in that kind of intimacy, as opposed to, like, it being my romantic partner.

EB: I mean, I do think that's why women can form super deep friendships, is because, like, we were also raised to not be afraid of intimacy in non-sexual ways.

LC: Speak for yourself.

EB: Well, I don't know, at least for me, like, I've had a lot of intimate female friendships that are not sexual. Of just like, I feel intimate with this person, but like, don't have to have any sort of sexual connection with them. But there is, like, a difference between an intimate friendship, and a more platonic one.

LC: I absolutely like, even if it's not really necessarily how I was raised, I definitely feel like, for me, I prefer – like, I have very intimate relationships compared to like, what I guess is considered a cultural norm. I know we're like, moving away from that, but like, I would rather have my like, deep, intimate relationships with many people than to have like, you know, just one person. The idea of having one person that I put, like, my entire stake in is like, terrifying to me.

EB: That makes sense.

LC: Yeah, yeah. But, like, I mean, but I think that the idea that we've cultivated as a society, this, like, heteronormative idea that you have, like one partner, and that is your romantic person, and that is the person that you spend your life with. And it's like, if you're basing your decision to share a life with someone based solely on romantic feelings, what the fuck are the chances of that person being also someone that you live with easily and have a good life with? And it's just like stupid, simple stuff too. Like just, I really like cooking and Lungowe really likes cleaning, and we're both generally clean, but, like, she loves deep cleaning, and I love cooking, and so, like, we're both sort of – you know, we live together in a way that's very easy and it's based on, like, discussions and like conversations, as opposed to, like, "Oh my god, I'm horny for you. Let's, like, build a whole life around this." Not that there's anything wrong with that. Just, like, to me, it seems like, you know, challenging, very challenging.

EB: Yes. And I think talking about religious sisters, like it's very similar what these sisters have been talking about. So we do have Sister Fasolka, who's going to talk to us a bit more about celibacy. She emphasizes that celibacy is a commitment that you have to make and remake.

FF: And this is a personal response. I don't represent sisters. As a sexual human being, what makes sense to me is periods of celibacy. It's what makes sense to me as a human being. I think lifelong celibacy is hard, and that's why I go back to saying, I make this commitment every day. I say, "Okay, I'm going to do this again today, or I'm going to try again today." And really, that's what it's about. And also for me, I really do believe this, other than our prayer life together, which is unifying, our commitment to celibate chastity is also very binding, because we are doing it, we're trying to do it together. So for religious life and for my commitment, it makes sense. It's just, it's a good choice that we try to make together, because, as Grace said, we're equal. Together, we're equal in this commitment. You know, I think celibacy is the hardest of the vows, because we're very binary thinkers, and it's this or that, either or, sex or no sex. Oh, come on, human beings are human beings, you know? I don't understand the emphasis on sex in our entire society, church, Christianity.

EB: This entire conversation is just so fascinating to hear from both of these sisters, about celibacy, about intimate friendships between women. I just love it, and the book is really groundbreaking, for women religious to write about these queer and lesbian topics publicly. As a Catholic, I also am like I completely – we are secret city, like Catholics push everything down and do not talk about it. So it is a huge deal for these sisters to have written this book from the Catholic religion.

LC: Okay, so what has the response to the book been?

GS: It's been quite – I would say the majority of the responses have been very positive. There were a few, you know, we've done some interviews with international reporters and domestic reporters, and we've talked to lots and lots and lots of people. The COVID did not stop it, because we had a virtual book tour. And, you know, I mean, the folks who asked us to speak with them were very positive. Some of the interviews that were published, some of the comments, you know, when you publish something, there's always the comment section. You know, I have comment muscles, but I'm not going to sign my name. And some of the comments were not real positive. I know that New Ways Ministry got some negative stuff. But, you know, I mean, everyone is entitled to their opinion. They speak from their perspective and their truth. I don't take any of it personally. I have personally received a number of responses that are very positive, from women religious, from college students, from priests, from a bishop, you know. So we've been very – I think, for the most part, its reception has been amazingly positive. We were a little bit worried about that. And individually, I think because we do gather with a core group of the authors who choose to join us monthly. And I would say 90%, 95% of them speak from positive reactions. You know, some have had challenges, but the majority has been very positive and very, you know, excited and engaging and ask questions. You know, I've had college students, you know, reach out to me. We've done a couple presentations with college students. So it really seems to have broken open a long, much-needed conversation. There's a version of our book that was published in Italian, that is currently on tour around the greater Rome area, and there's a Spanish version in process. So it has left English-speaking community and is headed off into Italy, and now it's heading into the Spanish-speaking country. So the little book has got some legs, as I say. Although the response to the book has been mostly positive, some of the authors have also felt fear around sharing their stories. And the reason I'm talking about fear is we probably could have had several hundred sister stories. But fear holds us back, fear of being judged, fear of being misunderstood, fear of folks thinking that all women's religious communities are all lesbian. Fear of losing support from benefactors and donors, fear of marred images of women religious. So the 23 sisters who wrote were incredibly courageous. Half of them did not sign their real name, and I can't speak for them. I can only speak for myself that it was really fear that I withheld my name. So if we could put aside our fear, we could just be so much more authentic. And that was Grace's story title: becoming authentic. We all want to be authentic, every single one of us, and it doesn't matter what your gender identity is or your sexual orientation or where you are on this great, beautiful spectrum. Just be authentic. And go back to the title and be authentic and love tenderly. There were 12 authors, I believe, who chose to sign under an alias, and a handful of them have since decided to come out. So as we gather monthly, they share the experiences of coming out and how afraid, terribly, terribly afraid they were to do that, and what they were afraid was going to happen if they did it. But then they talk about – and you can see it as they're telling the story. And then they talk about the response that they receive. You can see them lighten up and the joy that they experience, and they, you know, they get emotional. And because, I mean, some of these women are in their sixties or seventies, or their eighties, you know, and they've carried this shame with them, and this fear for so many years, and just that sense of being authentically known and loved and accepted, which is for me, that was the whole reason I got involved in this, was I knew that, you know, there was this journey, as Fran said, of the 23 women who courageously dove in and did this with us, but there's a whole heck of a lot more than 23, you know, who want to tell their stories, who wish to tell their stories, who wish to be known. And it's not just women religious, it's priests, it's families, it's children, it's college students, it's, you know. And that was my hope, was that this book would allow those conversations and that coming out process and that self-acceptance to happen.

EB: To wrap things up, we asked the sisters their advice to queer people who are religious, but may have felt exiled from their faith.

GS: One of the things I would add is – and I've had this conversation with several college students – they talk about, you know, there was one group of students who were at a Catholic college. They were undergraduates, and they talked about how they just didn't feel accepted when they went to church. And, you know, I said to them, "Where are you going to church?" And they said, "Well, I go to the, you know, the campus chapel and everything." I said, "Find a new church." And then I gave them a list of churches where they could go. And some of my friends were priests with whom they could engage. And I said that to this one group of students. It's a college in our area here, and the faculty member, immediately after we had this zoom conversation, reached out to me with an email and said, "Can I call you?" Sure. She calls me. She's like, "Can you give me directions? Because I'm going to put them all in a van and drive them to church on Sunday." So she piled them all into the van and went to this one church, and the priest made this like giant fuss over them, you know, because I emailed them and I said, "They're coming," and they're coming because they don't feel welcome or accepted. And, you know, I think, you know, when they're in the area, because I don't think majority of them were not from the area, I think that that's where they're experiencing church and God, you know? I mean, I know the one liturgy, he came wearing rainbow-colored vestments, which I was just like, oh, way to go, you know? But yeah, I mean, find where you are accepted and loved. And if it's not in the Catholic Church, then find a new church, you know, because God loves you for who you authentically are. And if somebody is standing in front of a microphone telling you otherwise, get up and walk out.

FF: And I would dovetail on that. I recently made a pin. I love making pins, buttons, buttons, and so, you know this idea of loving tenderly, and this idea from our Patron Saint Alphonsus of God's unconditional love for all – I made into a button, but I put it in simple language, and it says, "I love you no matter what. God." That's God's message to us. But you know what? That's the message of our parents who love us, our friends who love us, our sisters who love us, anyone who loves us. I love you no matter what.

GS: And it's our job to bring that love. We need to mirror that, you know, we need to be messengers of that, because they may not be hearing it in families and schools and churches, but, you know, we need to be people who bring that love to folks. And I think our little book does that.

LC: I just, I know, like, it's just Sound of Music. And I just like – okay, so I guess I was just waiting for someone to say, "Climb every mountain." And so that's it. Climb every mountain, follow every stream.

EB: Yeah, 'til you find your dream, you know? No. I mean, it is beautiful though, I do feel like both of these sisters, their entire being is just centered around love, right? Love for each other, love for the church, like, love for – yeah.

LC: Yeah, like, it should be about love, and that's what is like always frustrating, listening to these narratives of hatred. It's like, why? Why be like that? Anyway.

EB: Are you saying love is love, Leesa?

LC: I'm saying, I may have had a wicked child.

EB: But somewhere in my youth or childhood, I must have done something good.

LC: I must have done something good. Okay, that's enough. Was that like five references to The Sound of Music?

EB: I have confidence in sunshine. Yes, no, but I really do, I love both of these sisters and everything they've said about women religious. I hope that all of you have been listening to this episode, have gotten something great from this episode, and learned something new. Until then, here's a taste of what's to come on Sweetbitter.

Reverend Deon Johnson: I would say that, well, one of my biggest goals, obviously, is sharing good news. You know, that is what we are called, as followers of Jesus, to do, to share good news. Share the good news of discovering this Jesus, the sharing the good news of, you know, how our lives have been impacted. But the other thing that I really want to share is to remind folks that they are loved by God. That is not the prevailing message that we hear from Christianity, that is not the public voice that we often hear from people of faith, and one of my big goals is to try to change that perception. I mean, Christianity has a terrible PR problem, and if I can, in some small way, begin to turn the tide, to say that there are other voices of Christianity, that those who have co-opted that message of love and turned it more into a message of division and hate – they're not speaking for majority. They're not speaking for most Christians. They're speaking with a loud voice, but not from a place where a majority of people are with them. And so my goal, my hope, my aspiration, is that if I can invite one LGBTQIA+ person, one person who is on the margin, whether they are of faith or no faith, to recognize that Christianity, that at our core, is about love, I would feel as though I've done my job.

Reverend Jeanelle Ablola: Primarily churches, when it comes to liberation, I think they should be spaces for people to gather and to be able to have hard conversations, and to also be able to find a sense of healing and challenge, right. Healing so that we can have some sense of being free, you know, some sense of being free, some sense of empowerment, and a sense of challenge. Because, alright, now if we have a sense of healing, if we have a sense of empowerment, then what does that mean for us to be community within all of that? And what can our communities do? You know, I think sometimes communities may underestimate how much they can really impact change and transform. I think a lot of church model has been a charity, top-down type of model. I think that churches can contribute in regards to being places of solidarity, where we're all equal, you know, we're all in need of assistance, we're all in need of support, and we can, at the same time, also give that assistance and support. You know, there's a mutuality that should exist in churches.

LC: Thanks for listening to Sweetbitter. Our next episode will be on reimagining the church.

EB: If you enjoyed the podcast, please subscribe, rate, and review us. It really helps, especially written reviews on Apple and Spotify.

LC: You can also support us on Patreon, at patreon.com/sweetbitter.

EB: Sweetbitter is an independent production by me, Ellie Brigida, Alyse Knorr, and Leesa Charlotte. Our assistant producers are Thea Smith and Sarah Gabrielli. Our audio engineer is Cora Cicala, and our artwork is by Istela Illustrated. Thank you to our guests this week, Reverend Jakob Hero-Shaw, Reverend Altagracia Perez-Bullard, Sister Fran Fasolka, and Sister Grace Surdovel. You can read more about our guests and where to find them on our website.

LC: You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at @sweetbitterpod or contact us on our website, sweetbitterpodcast.com.