S3E07: Acts 8:26-40

Ellie Brigida: Welcome to Sweetbitter, where we explore the queer history of the Bible and Christianity. We're your hosts, Ellie Brigida...

Leesa Charlotte: ...and Leesa Charlotte.

EB: This episode, we're discussing asexuality, intersex, and Christianity.

LC: But before we get into that, let's bring in our resident Christian, Alyse Knorr. Welcome, Alyse.

Alyse Knorr: Hey, how are y'all?

EB: Doing great.

LC: I've missed you.

AK: I've missed y'all, too.

EB: What a good face to see.

AK: Likewise.

EB: I feel sorry for everyone listening to this, because they can't see your face.

AK: Just Google me. There's only one of me in the world, you'll find the right one.

EB: And you can see Alyse. Well, Alyse, what do you have for us today? What's our passage today?

AK: Today's passage is from the Book of Acts, which is the fifth book in the New Testament, and sort of tells the story of the founding of the Christian church after Jesus was crucified, and the spread of its message to the Roman Empire. And so this is Acts 8:26-40. I'll read the New Revised Standard Version, and it stars Philip, who is one of the Twelve Apostles of Jesus, and he's preaching throughout Greece and Syria and all these places. And so this is a story about someone that he met. So here you go: "Then an angel of the Lord said to Philip, 'Get up and go toward the south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.' (This is a wilderness road.) So he got up and went. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury. He had come to Jerusalem to worship and was returning home; seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah. Then the Spirit said to Philip, 'Go over to this chariot and join it.' So Philip ran up to it and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah. He asked, 'Do you understand what you are reading?'" And the eunuch replied, "'How can I, unless someone guides me?' And he invited Philip to get in and sit beside him." And then there's a little bit from the scripture, which I'm not going to read. "The eunuch asked Philip, 'About whom, may I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?' Then Philip began to speak, and starting with this scripture he proclaimed to him the good news about Jesus. As they were going along the road, they came to some water, and the eunuch said, 'Look, here is water! What is to prevent me from being baptized?' He commanded the chariot to stop, and both of them, Philip and the eunuch, went down into the water, and Philip baptized him. When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; the eunuch saw him no more and went on his way rejoicing."

EB: Great. So why did we choose this passage today?

AK: Well, we've talked about eunuchs and how they're pretty, like gender bendy and really cool on on some past episodes, but this episode is going to focus on intersex and ace Christianity, and so this passage means a lot to some of our guests. And so I'm just going to let Pastor Tim Schaefer describe it to you now, followed by Stephanie A. Budwey, who's one of our guests today. And Stephanie is the Luce Dean's Faculty Fellow Assistant Professor of the History and Practice of Christian Worship and the Arts at Vanderbilt.

Tim Schaefer: One of my favorites, one of my favorite characters, and this was a portion of Acts, the Book of Acts that was actually used during my ordination. And the person who preached at my ordination was also an openly gay pastor, and had been a professor of mine in seminary, and he actually preached on this, and so that was very special. But that is the story of the Ethiopian eunuch, and the reason that resonates with me is in so many ways, right? There's this intersectional outsiderness, if that's a word of this, of this eunuch, right? Being Ethiopian kind of represented him being geographically far away. Also, there's this racial, ethnic component that this eunuch is also an outsider in that regard, but then also from a perspective of sort of sexuality and of gender identity, this eunuch really represents kind of this other outsider status. Because in that culture, in Roman culture, everything would have been about being able to have children. It would have been about childbirth. That would have been very important. So to not have that ability, to be a servant of the queen and be castrated, kind of also put the eunuch in this kind of subservient role, no longer really considered a quote, unquote "man" even by those standards at that time, because I don't know that the standards of what was male and female were all that different from kind of more traditional views held today. What I think is so cool about that is Philip ends up baptizing this eunuch, just because the eunuch has this interest and shows this commitment to the faith, and that's really all it took. All of that other outsider status just kind of didn't matter in that moment. And that, to me, is a really good example of a queer scripture, or at least a queer reading of scripture, that makes the case, in my mind, for the inclusion of all sorts of people from the margins.

Stephanie Budwey: There are passages that mention eunuchs in the Bible, such as Isaiah 56:1-8, Matthew 19:11-12, and Acts 8:26-40 – all of which refer to the inclusion of eunuchs. And from what we can understand, there seem to have been three categories of eunuchs: those who were born eunuchs and could have what we would today consider to be intersex traits, those who chose to be castrated, and those who were forced to be castrated. And so for some intersex people, it is helpful to see themselves in biblical passages where they were welcomed and included, such as Acts 8, the story of the Ethiopian eunuch who was told they can indeed be baptized, unlike the experience of Sally Gross, who was told she could not be baptized. And it's also interesting to note that in the rabbinic tradition of the first few centuries, they had categories outside of female and male that would have included people with intersex traits.

EB: I love hearing from Tim and Stephanie on this. I mean, just hearing the passage itself, I was definitely struck by the fact that, like what we're talking about here is all you have to do is be open to hearing about the Word of God and being baptized, and Philip will baptize you, right? Like he didn't care who this eunuch was. He didn't care what the eunuch's gender representation was, what his race was. And so I think that's one of the things that's important for us to discuss today.

LC: Yeah, I think that it kind of comes back to what we've been saying for the whole season, which is that this sort of hatred that you're seeing at the moment in the kind of, like, far right of politics, I guess, or like the evangelical Christian politics is, like, not actually what's represented in the Bible. And I just think that, yeah, this story is such a beautiful representation of that.

AK: Yeah, and all of that, you know, as usual, is not to say that we're out here, like, apologizing for, like, oh, poor Christianity gets a bad rep or whatever, because it does do real harm. And it's, you know, there's also kind of, like – when I read this, I just see, like, evangelizing in the tradition I grew up with, which was really difficult, you know that Philip immediately wants to engage with him. He's a little condescending and like, "Do you know what you're reading? Like, do you understand what you're reading?" But I just love seeing stories like this that I just never heard about growing up, just two people who were really, really different from really different walks of life, meeting and sharing in their excitement about this brand-new religion that's being formed. I mean, for Philip to find this dude, like Christianity is barely beginning, you know, it's barely spreading. It's not a monolith the way it is for us today. It's like this baby radical, weird religion, about this guy that everybody like, literally murdered because they were so scared of him. And so for him to find the student, he's like, "Wait, how did you hear about Jesus? Like, how did you hear about Isaiah? Like, what are you doing reading this?" And so it's kind of a cool moment to see Christianity in its infancy. And I just really like seeing also, like, you know, the eunuch is, like, this great alternative to toxic masculinity, you know, he's like – he's just excited. He's like, "Look, there's some water. Let's go baptize me right now."

EB: I love that interpretation too, of just like, talking about, like, the kernel of the beginning of Christianity as this radical movement, as this radically inclusive movement, right? Everyone is welcome when you read this story in the Bible, and yet, however many years later, things have shifted, and human beings have like twisted words to say, not everyone is welcome. So I think that's like the thing that I had latched on to from hearing this is, like, in the Bible, this particular passage is saying everyone is welcome.

LC: Yeah, something you said before Alyse, which I think is really important for us to maybe reference, like, really clearly, is that Christianity has caused a lot of harm. And I think that something that, like, one of the reasons why, like, I wanted to do this season is because of the harm that it's doing, and it's not to, like, give some kind of retribution for Christianity, obviously, like, it's not – I have no dog in this fight. Like, I'm not religious at all. For me it was really about, like, actually, just like, having the tools to speak back to people, I guess, not like, in an aggressive way, but just like, this text is being used so much and like, increasingly more so, to try to pivot, like laws and sort of like, create a lot of harm. And my sort of take on this season was that as a queer community, for us to have, like, a broader knowledge of Christianity at its core is not like a weapon, but like a counterpoint to, like, all of the things that are being used against us. And so I don't know if we've explicitly said that in the podcast, but I wanted to, like, make that clear.

AK: Yeah. I mean, when I read that passage from Acts and hear about Philip proclaiming the good news, right? Like, I get a little bit triggered, because I'm like, you know, like, for some Christians today, that means going and telling people, like, "If you don't believe in the good news, then you're going to hell, unless you believe in this very specific thing," you know, like they're trying to convert. But if you think about what this meant at the time, the good news that he's spreading is that there was this dude who, like, stood up to an empire, right and, like, questioned all of the society's values around money and power and doctrine, and like he was standing up to oppressors, right? And he was hanging out with the most poor. Like, the good news is that there was this dude that was leading us in how to love our neighbor and leading us in how to hang out with sex workers and people with contagious, infectious illness and people who are mentally ill and people who don't present, you know, their gender the way that we expect them to, like that is the good news. And so every pastor and every queer Christian I've talked to this season has said, like, the good news is actually really good.

EB: Yeah, I love that. And inclusive.

AK: Yes. So that's why it was really important to us to have a whole episode on experiences of ace and intersex people with Christianity, because this does not get nearly the conversation or the attention it deserves. So I'm really excited about this episode, and I hope you all will really like our guests today.

EB: You too. Thank you so much, Alyse.

AK: Yeah, take care.

EB: We will be back after a quick break.

LC: And we're back. As we said at the top of the episode, this episode, we'll be discussing asexuality, intersex, and Christianity.

EB: We're giving these two identities their own episode, because they get so erased within the queer community, and we think it's important to highlight them.

LC: First up, we'll hear from Madison Stafford, an asexual member of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-Day Saints. She didn't grow up very religious at home, but she began attending a Baptist church with friends, and eventually joined the Church of the Latter-Day Saints after she turned 18.

Madison Stafford: I think I went through my whole middle school experience and only had one crush, and it was like for a month, and that was the extent. So I was not like my other friends in that aspect, and I was just kind of walking one day, and my science nerd brand knew that the prefix "a-" meant "not." And then I was like, well, if I'm not into guys, like all my friends are, then I must be asexual. That was just like, I didn't even know it was, like, an LGBTQ term. I just put the term, I put it together in my head, because I was like, a means this, and sexual means this, or asexual. So I realized that, and I just kind of went on with my business. I didn't think about it because I wasn't dating anybody, and it wasn't really relevant to me at that point, but it was kind of in the back of my head. And then later on in high school, when I did get a crush on that guy and we started dating, it became relevant again, and I told him that I was asexual, and he laughed and said, no, you're not. So that sucked, but I honestly didn't have, like, the self-esteem that I should have had to be dating someone, so I just kind of went along with it because I wanted to make him happy, and he was obviously straight, and expected his wife to have biological kids and all this stuff. So I just kind of went along with it and tried to be straight. And I think I convinced myself for a while that I wasn't, but then after he was gone, like I said, I was in college, and I was like, yeah, I don't think anything actually went away. I think I've been ace the whole time and just have been in denial about it. So I had to sort of re-come out to myself in college. And that second time it was a lot harder, because now I had all this, like misplaced religious guilt associated with it, and it kind of sucked. One thing I didn't realize about coming out is that it's not just a one and done thing. You have to keep doing it. One of the things that I did a couple years ago was I served a mission for my church, and I love my mission. I think my mission really helped me come to terms with my aceness, because, you know, you're out there every day teaching people about eternal families, and like it was always in the back burner, like, what about my eternal family? Like, no one's gonna marry me if I can't have biological kids with them. And blah, blah, blah. And so I eventually got to a point where I realized that, like, God wasn't mad at me for not wanting to have biological kids or being ace. He was like, you know, I made you this way for a reason. There's thousands of people on this earth who can't have kids. And so I started to, like, not resent that part of myself so much, because at that point, I knew I was ace before, when I was dating my toxic ex-boyfriend, he was like, he was one of those judgy church people who was like, you know, the point of being a female in the church is to have kids, and if you can't do that then, like, what's the point? And I was like, you know, ouch, but like, back then, I didn't know a lot about the church, and I believed him. And I was like, well, if that's what God wants me to do, then I've got to suck it up and do it. And I tried so hard to, like, make myself be straight. And after he left, I like, realized, well, I'm still not straight, like that didn't work, basically.

EB: So hearing Madison talk about all of this, it sort of reminds me of a lot of the other previous guests we've had, where their own individual relationship with their spirituality has really been a source of comfort for them, but it's really the external forces, right? The people who tell them what God is supposed to be or what their beliefs are supposed to be, that really causes that harm.

LC: You don't say.

EB: Yeah, right. I also find this – we could dive into this a lot, but I think in an asexual episode, it's sort of interesting to dive into, is religion and sexuality in general, right? Religion is so invested in sex, right? And it's like, okay, so like, for me, like as a Catholic, right? It's like, you don't have sex until you're married, right? So there's like, you're not supposed to have sex. But then, if you're asexual, you are shamed also for that. So it's like you're just, no matter what you want to do with your own body, you, in some way, will be shamed by organized religion. It's like, what? What do we do? Like the only "correct," quote, unquote path is to get married, only have sex to have babies and like, that's it, which just makes no fucking sense to me.

LC: And it must be just so strange to be someone who is asexual in a world that is just like so obsessed with sex.

EB: Yes, and well too, like from Madison, because she didn't want to have sex, her ex made her think there was something wrong with her, right?

LC: So after this, Madison started making helpful videos about being ace and Christian, and came out to more of her community.

MS: I started telling my companions, like the other missionaries that I worked with, and I told my mission president, and I was like, starting to feel okay with myself again. And I came home, and before I left to go home, my mission president – he's like, the person in charge of all the missionaries in the area. My mission president told me, he's like, okay, when you go home, you need to get on a dating website. And I was like, no, that's a terrible idea. Like, I was concerned about the ace thing. I'm like, you know, at what point do I break that news? Do I try to get them to like me first and then break it? Or do I tell them up front and scare them away, like it was a big concern. But so I went home, and I eventually did get on a dating app. I gave myself, like, six weeks to adjust back to being a normal person, and I got on this app called Mutual, which is a dating app specifically for church members. And at that point, I had already come out publicly, I wrote the article for Affirmation, and I posted a thing on Facebook, and I was like, I kind of, like, described my experience on my mission, and like, how I realized it was okay, and God wasn't mad at me, and blah, blah, blah, and everyone was really supportive. I did get a lot of ignorant questions, but that's kind of to be expected. But no one was mean to me, which was nice. And so the whole being out publicly made going on the dating app easier. I, like, just typed it out up front. I'm like, "Just so you know, I'm asexual. If you don't know what that means, Google it." I kind of put it up as, like, a warning, like I'm being upfront. I don't want to feel like I'm tricking anybody, or like have to break that news later. And I got married, so it was fine. I didn't scare everybody away.

EB: Let's hear a little bit more from Madison right now. She has some really interesting things to tell us about the difference between God and the church.

MS: At some point on my mission, one of the twelve apostles came and spoke to us, and I came up to him, and I asked him, you know, like, what does God say about asexual people? Because, like, there's resources that the church has for, like, gay people, but not ace people, and the struggles there are totally different. And I don't even know if he knew what asexuality was, but I remember him looking at me and saying that there's a place for everyone in God's Church. And at the time, that answer did not make me happy. I was like, that's it? Like, that is not specific enough. I need more. Like, can you be less vague, please? But now that answer means the world to me, because it is true. Like, there is a place for everyone in God's church. And you know, for some people, maybe that doesn't mean being, like, 100% active. Like, I know a lot of people who are LGBTQ that have either taken a break from the church and decided to come back, or they're like, a little active, but not completely active, like, it honestly just depends on where you're at with your journey with God, because I feel like that's where a lot of the hurt comes from. Like people aren't hurt by God, they're hurt by church culture pretending that it's God. Like you have to remember that the point of religion is God, not the other way around, like if you feel hurt by the church, you're hurt by the church and not necessarily God.

LC: So again, we keep coming back to this point all through the season, which is that this institutionalized religion is not the same as God, and people's relationship with God, and I feel like this is incredibly important to keep track of. And especially when dealing with people who are individually religious, like and not, I don't know, tainting everyone with the same brush.

EB: Yes, I appreciate that standpoint on it, which I think is the point of our season, is to like, look more individually, and like also institutionally. But see what people's individual relationship is with their spirituality within the queer community. And today, when Madison feels tension around her ace identity and her faith, it's more around the church culture, not necessarily her relationship directly with God.

MS: The thing about my church is that you have, like, the doctrine part, and then you have culture part. And the culture part totally depends on where you live as well. Like, if you go to Utah, church culture over there is totally different than church culture over here. And it shouldn't be like that, but it is, I guess churches everywhere kind of struggle with that problem. But I guess in like, stereotypical church culture, like the average cookie cutter member will grow up, they tend to get married pretty young, and they have lots of biological kids. And it's not doctrine that you have to do that, I've learned through part of this journey, but that's just what people tend to do, because the church is very centered on families, and just happens to be centered on stereotypical families. But being asexual, I don't fit into that cookie cutter mold. I did get married young, so I did fall into that. I never thought I would get married, but I did, and that's cool. I like being married, but I'm not fitting into, like, the cookie cutter kids part. Like my husband and I are planning on adopting kids in a couple years, but I'm not having them biologically, and I don't know if I'll have like, six, like, the average family have in Utah. I'm not one of those people that fits into the stereotypical church culture, but like, the way that the church is supposed to be, without all like the culture and like the judgy people with the expectations, like I do fit in, but not with, like, a lot of the culture part. It's hard, like not fitting in with everybody else, like not being that stereotypical member who can have biological kids, and you know, like church members, you know you're not supposed to be a judgmental person, but there's plenty of those in churches and elsewhere all across the world. There's a lot of judgy people everywhere, and especially now, like being a young married member of the church, like so many of my mission friends have babies already, and I'm like, that's crazy to think about. Like, just a year ago, you were single, and now you're pregnant. Like, all of my friends are gonna have babies, and their babies are gonna look like them, and they're gonna have, like, this stereotypical, normal family. And I'm not, and that can be a hard pill to swallow. On the same token, I'm also kind of glad that I am, because I know that there's gotta be other asexual members of the church out there. And like, even just reading the comments on the Affirmation blog under my thing, like people are grateful that I came out and said something, because, like, they were waiting for someone to come out and say something, just like I was waiting for someone to come out and say something. So it's a blessing to be able to help other people in that way, and I think it's a blessing, too, that this trial has helped bring me closer to God and realize more like who God is and who he isn't. God isn't mad at me for this. He's not mad at anybody for it. He just loves me and made me this way for a reason. He's not like, he's not in a box that we sometimes put him in, if that makes sense, and I'm really blessed to be able to understand that, because maybe if I wasn't ace and didn't have to go through all this, I would think different of God, if that makes sense, like I would have him in this box that he doesn't belong in. Nobody puts God in a corner. No, they do not. Did you know that there's a new Dirty Dancing reboot coming out?

LC: What?

EB: Yes, there is, super exciting. But we're not talking about Dirty Dancing today. We are gonna talk – quite the opposite. Now we're gonna talk about the intersex experiences in Christianity, and our first guest is Marissa Adams, Program Coordinator at interACT: Advocates for Intersex Youth, an organization dedicated to advocating for the human rights of children born with intersex traits. Marissa defined intersex for us.

Marissa Adams: So intersex refers to people with male variations of their sex characteristics, chromosomes, gonads, genitals, hormone production and response. And so intersex isn't someone who's male and female. It's, again, the spectrum, just like gender is a spectrum, sex is a spectrum. And so that's really what it refers to. And it was thought that intersex people are super, super rare, and it's actually not the case, depending on what you include under the definition of intersex, it's as much as 1.7% of the population.

LC: Marissa told us about her journey being raised Christian as an intersex person, and some of the challenges she had to overcome around the tensions between these two identities.

MA: I was just in church from as early as I can remember. Went to vacation Bible School. My dad was a church chaplain at a small Navy base in Puerto Rico, where I lived for a few years. And I always looked up to him, and thought that was so cool. And so other than that, I was just very involved. I guess the big thing was, I mean, it was a very fundamentalist kind of way that I grew up in the church, and there wasn't a lot of interpretation other than the very strict interpretation that, especially the elementary school I went to, really reinforced and so I didn't ever kind of question anything, though, until I was a little bit older. And it was actually after I kind of found out that – well, so I was identified intersex at birth, but I truly didn't understand it and understand all the implications of it for me until I was a young teenager, and so after that, due to the strict kind of literal interpretation of Christianity that I was used to, I really questioned, like, why? Why am I like this, like, so that changed things for me for a little while, angry at God, etcetera. Well, outside of my family, I mean, in addition to just the church and just the way I was raised, there was never a question of anything other than male and female, and so when I found out about myself being intersex, I also didn't have anyone really to explain it to me in a very affirming way. So I took to the computer and found kind of the horrible things that's said about intersex on the internet. And this was, of course, like 15 years ago, so it was even worse then. And so what I found was not comforting, and of course, again, it's this very binary Bible and beliefs for me growing up. So I questioned, well, where am I in all this? Was I literally God's mistake? Like, yeah, so that's kind of where that came from. And along the way, I realized I was queer, and that, too, also is not very – there's not many comforting passages in the Bible about that either. So that kind of, again, made me question things a little bit, so but then I eventually learned that there are ways of I guess, thinking about it differently, the Bible, all that, kind of the interpretations and how it was written so long ago, and I know it was originally written in not English, and so it's gotten maybe mistranslated over the years, I don't know, but that's helped a little bit too.

EB: Over time, Marissa, like many of our guests this season, began to reject the harmful teachings she'd received and began to reclaim Christianity for herself.

MA: I mean, it really started with just like, I don't really care what these people in this church or my old school think and say, that's fine, I don't – God was described to me in a very authoritative, not really always that comforting way. And then I really had to rethink about it. I think a lot of kind of what I believed what a Christian meant, and what God and Jesus meant was really how it was presented to me by other people, and realizing that I was also around denominations and certain, again, like very fundamentalist type of interpretations of Christianity and the Bible. And so eventually I did realize there are certain churches in Christian faith that are accepting of gay, lesbian, at least, and that was, in itself, very helpful for me. Today, for me, it just means still believing in Jesus, that he, you know, saved us, and that we are living our lives to serve him. But it also means more than just that, it's surrounding yourself with people that believe the same thing you do, and that may not mean the same type of Christians that you initially surrounded yourself with, and there's ways of community and also, especially because the Bible does not do a great job at explaining intersex and making other, well, intersex people feel comforted by it, it's really a way of kind of rethinking about it, and really kind of just realizing, okay, God doesn't make mistakes. I mean, unfortunately, for a while, a long time ago, I kind of did think I was one of God's "oops." No, though, if you believe God doesn't make "oops," then you are as you are. You are as nature and God intended you to be.

EB: "God makes no mistakes." How many times can I sing "Born This Way" in our season?

LC: It's not a very relevant text.

EB: It actually is completely relevant to this season. It's perfect, but it was not Lady Gaga. One of those other experts is our next guest, Stephanie A. Budwey, who you heard at the top of the episode talking about the Ethiopian eunuch. Stephanie's book published in 2022 is called Religion and Intersex: Perspectives from Science, Law, Culture, and Theology, and it's based on interviews with intersex individuals in Germany. Stephanie told us her goal is to promote the full humanity and flourishing of intersex people. She told us about her book and about what churches need to do to be more inclusive of intersex people.

SB: I decided to write this book because when I moved to Germany in 2013, they had just passed a law that allowed for a child's sex to be registered as something other than female or male, which was one of the first times in the world that had happened. Before hearing about this, I didn't realize that parents were pressured to make such a decision when the child is born, that it was so important to have their sex registered for them to get things like medical care and things like that. And that because this pressure existed, they then felt pressured to have surgery performed on their newborn children so they could fit them into one of these two boxes. So there's obviously the additional societal pressure to be either female or male, and then this sex gender binary is often supported in theology as well. So I became interested to hear about the experience of intersex people, particularly how they felt in the church. And the more I learned, the more I became aware that this is a topic that has not been talked about because there is so much silence and shame and stigma around it. And so my hope is that my book can help raise awareness about the experiences of intersex people and the issues that they face. So some of the most important things I learned, one of the main things, is thinking about the need to be careful about the language that we use in worship, because for those intersex people who identify outside of the sex gender binary – and also recognizing that not all intersex people identify as non-binary, but some do – that when we use language in church, such as sons and daughters and brothers and sisters, this makes them feel excluded. You know, one person said, well, I hear this language and I'm like, okay, you don't want me here and I leave. So really thinking about that need to be careful of the language that we use in prayers and that we use when we sing songs, because there's so much binary language that is in worship that we just are so accustomed to that we're not aware of it. Also the word in German that one of my interview partners used is [German phrase], which means to be spoken or to be said out loud. And they talked about the need for intersex to be [German phrase]. So this need to remove the shame and stigma around intersex, and this is kind of what I try to outline in what I call a theology of both/neither. So to bring awareness that intersex people exist, that they are made in God's image, and that creation itself is diverse, as all human beings are. Genesis 1:27, we're often taught God created humans, male and female, and with this comes a sexual dimorphic reading of the text that says that all humans are either only clearly female or clearly male, which thus implies that intersex people are not humans and they are not made in God's image. Intersex activist Sally Gross was actually told that because she was intersex, she was not human and therefore unbaptizable. And the language this person said was, "like dogs, cats, and tins of tuna," to describe that she was not a human being and could not be baptized. And so we get this horrible theology from this passage of Genesis. So one of my interview partners said that their understanding was that God made humans male to female. So this opens up a sexually polymorphic reading of Genesis, one where sex/gender is a spectrum, rather than the very strict binary of sexual dimorphism. And so this notion of creation as a spectrum corresponds to the entire creation story when we think about it, because God made not just day and night, but everything in between. We have dusk, we have dawn, we have all these different shades of time. So additionally, God made not only male and female, but everything in between, all people in between, including intersex people. And also, when you dig into the Jewish and Christian tradition, there are readings of the creation story where the primordial human was androgynous, some understanding that this is an undifferentiated sex, others meaning it was both sexes in a single body. So there are multiple ways of looking at Genesis in a sexually polymorphic way, which include intersex people.

LC: I love that, like humans as male to female. Like, gender being a spectrum. I think we talk about gender as a spectrum in terms of the, I guess, like, non-binary, but like, not so much as like – and there are so many different types of intersex identities. So like, I think this is really great, and we should just start talking about sex as a spectrum, as well as gender and sexuality and all of those things.

EB: I agree. I love that. I also think too, just like the idea of language being more inclusive, like I feel like as more of the people around me identify as non-binary, like at least myself, personally, I mostly start referring to people as they/them, rather than she/her, even if, like, if I don't know what their gender or what their pronouns are, right? So I usually will ask eventually, but you know what I mean?

LC: Oh, no, that's what I mean. Like, it's not that hard to not be – like, it's not that hard. This is the thing I've had some conversations with people who are older, who are like, I really struggle with this. Like, why does have to be so whatever? And I'm like, look, it's really just a matter of, like, treating people nicely.

EB: Yeah, and just being more conscious, like, you're just like, it just takes a little bit more effort to make someone else feel seen. Like, why not? So I think to have that be –

LC: Like give me a proper reason why not. Aside from you saying that you have a discomfort with language that has always been used, like we have always used they/them as a descriptor, it's just, yeah, anyway. It's just not that hard.

EB: So I like the idea of like, also changing that –

LC: Sex is a spectrum. I've never thought about it before. I'm not gonna like, I don't want to misrepresent myself. Like I definitely think about intersex people, but I've never thought about using the terminology of sex as a spectrum, and I really like that.

EB: I like it too. Today, Marissa does a ton of amazing activism and advocacy work for the intersex community, which she told us more about.

MA: Yeah, so I have known about interACT for about 10 years, it's interACT: Advocates for Intersex Youth. I, initially, years ago, kind of joined as part of their like youth advocacy program where young people are mentored in a way that prepares them to be intersex advocates and kind of advocate for themselves and others, and so I have been involved with them for years, and recently started working for them as the Program Coordinator and interACT's real mission is to advocate for the human rights of intersex children, that includes ending medically unnecessary surgery. It's one of the big kind of missions of interacting, and so we're one of the most important organizations to me, and I kind of credit them for getting me to where I am, that I'm able to do some sort of public speaking on this like I am now. For a long time, I again, felt shameful and honestly super depressed, and so getting in touch with interACT and seeing other people kind of come out of the shadows, in a sense, was really inspiring to me, and that's kind of how I got into it. I also work at InterConnect, which was previously the Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome Support Group. It's been around for over 25 years. It's the largest and oldest support group for intersex people in North America, and connected with them eight years ago and I've been attending their annual conferences, and now I'm in the role with them where I'm also able to kind of welcome other intersex individuals and children and families kind of into the community of support and connection. And even in my time with InterConnect, it has really come up that there are individuals, intersex people, who are often kind of wondering their relationship with Christianity and Jesus and God, whether that's Christianity or other kind of religions that they practice, like it's one of those big things that there's not a lot of resources and not a lot of information. And so, yeah, that's just been a big, big theme that I've seen. And so it's been helpful to kind of bring my expertise, or journey on expertise of this topic into my other work with the intersex community. All the resources and organizations that Marissa is working with or has talked about are so important in doing advocacy work, fighting for human rights for intersex people, and creating community. They also raise awareness and fight against erasure, which is a huge problem that happens even within the queer community. Here's Stephanie again talking about that erasure.

SB: As I was working on the beginning stages of this, I would give presentations at many different places, and it was always shocking to me that so many people, their mouths were on the ground. They didn't know that intersex people existed. They didn't know that they were going through all these awful things. And so for me as an ally, I'm just, you know, trying to do what I can to help raise awareness. Because from my interview partners, that was like, the first thing is, we exist. That we're, you know, this is who we are, and this is – and because there's so much shame and stigma that it's not talked about, the doctors tell the parents, you know, "Don't tell your children, you know, they can't know about this," and then you have all the shame. And so, you know, folks like Marissa, who are so courageous to share their stories, I mean, this is just so powerful to hear from someone, this is my experience. This is what happened to me, and whatever I can do to help share those stories and raise awareness so that, you know, we can end these unnecessary medical surgeries that are being done without consent. And you know, Marissa and folks like interACT are doing that, we're starting to see hospitals that are saying that they won't do these surgeries anymore. So folks like Marissa and interACT are doing amazing work to help make progress.

LC: We want to end with Marissa sharing a couple of her favorite Bible passages, because they're just so fitting for today's episode.

MA: One of my favorite verses that I've liked even before it was comforting to me, even before specifically getting in touch with my intersex identity, is the one that's, "I'm fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works." I know it well. My soul knows it well. So that's always been comforting for me. Yeah, you know, I grew up with a lot of shame, and, you know, struggled with an eating disorder for a while too. And so that's one kind of verse that's kind of always helped with kind of encouragement and that. And I think the other one, just struggling with anxiety and stuff throughout my life, is, let's see. It's Psalm 34:4. "I sought the Lord, and He delivered – He answered me. He delivered me from all my fears." So that's always one that's helped.

EB: That passage that Marissa is talking about, fearfully and wonderfully made. I think we've talked about that one before. It's the same, like it comes up a lot for people in the queer community, because I think, like just hearing that phrase makes people feel like they are seen, like they were made in a beautiful way, like just the way they are is great. I'm just gonna keep saying.

LC: "Born This Way"!

EB: I'm trying not to sing "Born This Way." But I do love that. Like, I honestly would like – some things in the Bible are so like, just, like, if you just take it as, like, beautiful poetry, and you take out all of the, like, organized religion of it, like, that is a beautiful phrase. That's like why I enjoy – and I'm sure you too, Leesa – like, I enjoy singing hymns like, you're just like, the lyrics of this are beautiful. The melody is beautiful. And like, when you take out all the rest of the bullshit, you're like, this is nice.

LC: Yeah, one of my favorite Christmas songs, which is by Tim Minchin. It's like, the only – it's so specific. It's like, an Australian like migrant or someone who's left Australia. It's for someone who's left Australia, who's not religious on Christmas. So it's, like, basically written for me, and he has like a line being like, "Yeah, I get freaked out by churches," which I'm not freaked out by churches. Some of the hymns that they sing have nice chords, but the lyrics are dodgy. Like, I always think about that when I think about, like, how much I love singing hymns, not that they're all dodgy. But, like, sometimes you're like, what are they saying, right?

EB: Yeah, yeah. I love that. So great. But yes, I think we've – I've really enjoyed this episode, learning more about asexuality and intersex communities and their connection with their faith. I'm excited for our next episode.

LC: Oh, my god, me too.

EB: Until then, here's a taste of what's to come on Sweetbitter.

Fran Fasolka: Probably for the first time in my life, I was with all of these young women who were so passionate about life, excited about religious life, wanted to be great nuns, wanted to do everything right, wanted to be closer to God. And you know, when you're with people who carry the same desires, those attractions, there's just like sparks flying. You know, I was young. We had a lot in common. The sparks were flying. You can't help it, sometimes.

Grace Surdovel: In my experience, it is really – you develop profound friendships. You really do. You really go deep with one another. You risk sharing a little bit, and a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more, and you just, you draw energy from that level of, you know, spiritual and emotional intimacy. And I see that in our congregation, you know, as I said, I was just elected to our leadership team. And the blessing of blessings with that is being able to now interact with more sisters and really go deep with them, you know, especially some of our older sisters and that's that intimacy, that's where you draw the energy. And it really makes – it helps make the choice of celibacy a little bit easier. You know, everyone is drawn – everyone has a need for intimacy and to be known on that deeper, intimate level. Being able to do that with folks, you know? I mean, you're not going to do it with everyone. You're going to have a few with whom you can share and be genuine and authentic. But that's so important if you're going to live a celibate life, because otherwise, you're going to be a very lonely person in a crowd of women. And if you're a person who's, attracted to women, that could be even more challenging.

LC: Thanks for listening to Sweetbitter. Our next episode will be out on June 12th.

EB: If you enjoyed the podcast, please subscribe, rate, and review us. It really helps, especially written reviews on Apple and Spotify.

LC: Like any church, we have an offering plate. We can’t pass it down the pew, but you can give us your tithings on Patreon at patreon.com/sweetbitter.

EB: Sweetbitter is an independent production by me Ellie Brigida, Alyse Knorr, and Leesa Charlotte. Our assistant producer is Thea Smith. Our audio engineers are Cora Cicala and Ana López Reyes. Our content producer is Lungowe Zeko, and our artwork is by Istela Illustrated.

LC: Thank you to our guests this week, Marissa Adams, Stephanie A. Budwey, and Madison Stafford. You can read more about our guests and where to find them on our website, sweetbitterpodcast.com.

EB: Don’t forget to follow us on Instagram and Bluesky at @sweetbitterpod. Stay sweet!

LC: And bitter! It’s Pride Month, y’all!

EB: Yes!

LC: Be rageful!

EB: Celebrate with bitterness.